Интревью Храбака с Колином Хитоном. Military History: When and where were you born? Hrabak: I was born on December 19, 1914, in a small village near Leipzig in Saxony. During the first four years of my life my father was an infantryman, fighting in France during Word War I. My mother, sister and I lived on a farm, and my sister was a year older than I was. After the war we had a very difficult time, as did everyone, and when my father returned he started his own business, a construction firm building homes. The terrible inflation and unemployment made it very hard on us. We continued on like this until I joined the service, and my father's business continued until the outbreak of World War II. As for me, I went to school, and after nine years in public school I attended the Queen Carola Gymnasium in Leipzig, which is similar to your high school, until Easter of 1934. MH: When did your interest in flying develop? Hrabak: I was about 16 when I began to visit all of the existing air bases near Leipzig, including Dessau, where the Junkers company developed its famous airplanes, and I watched everything. The year before I finished gymnasium, in the summer of 1933, I tried to get a place in one of the two training centers for commercial pilots, but without success. However, I did get a hint that there might be a buildup of a new air force in Germany and was advised to contact the navy, or Kriegsmarine. In April 1934 1 started my military career as a naval officer candidate, and in November 1935 I began my flight training at Ludwigslust. MH: Didn't you start out with the same training as another ace, Johannes Steinhoff? Hrabak: Yes, exactly, and we have been close ever since. MH: Did you take naturally to flying, or were there difficulties? Hrabak: I think everything went rather normally. There were two major accidents, however. As a young lieutenant I was stationed with a fighter group at Bernburg, with the Heinkel He-51, the older biplane. During a training mission we encountered heavy ground fog, and due to a fuel shortage I was forced down into it, and I crashed into a building. The aircraft was totally destroyed, and I had a slight injury to my left eye that put me out of action for three months. Incidentally, Adolf Galland was in the same group and had crashed just two days before due to the same conditions, using the same type of aircraft. My second accident occurred about two years later when I had my first flight in a Messerschmitt Me-109E, after having flown the Bf-109D model earlier. The Daimler-Benz engine was more powerful in the E type, and during takeoff I realized this rather suddenly--doing a ground loop and breaking the undercarriage away. MH: You were later sent to Austria to help establish a fighter wing. How did that come about? Hrabak: After about half a year at Bernburg and another six months at Bad Aibling just southeast of Munich, I transferred with the fighter group to Vienna in mid-March 1938. There we protected the Junkers Ju-52/3m used by Adolf Hitler, flying escort. At Aspern, we were mixed together with Austrian Jagdgeschwader 2 and split into two groups. One stayed in Vienna, the other returned to Bad Aibling. At this time I became adjutant of the Vienna group, designated I Gruppe, Zerstörergeschwader (destroyer wing) 76, until World War II broke out. On April 1, 1939, I took command of the 1st Staffel (Jagd), or 1(J)/ZG.76, which consisted mostly of Austrians. They were excellent, well-trained personnel. MH: What was your first combat mission like? Hrabak: Just before the war erupted, our unit moved to Upper Silesia, northeast of Breslau, which is now part of Poland and called Wrozlau. It was an emergency airfield from which we flew our first missions in the campaign against Poland. The first two days of combat we did not see a single enemy plane, but on the third day, while I was flying a four-plane fighter sweep, we received a radio call that Polish bombers were attacking German ground troops. We flew to the area concerned and saw three PZL P.23s, and I immediately attacked the one in the center. However, 1 did this in a very thoughtless, childish way, and before I could begin firing, the rear gunner shot my engine dead. The cockpit filled with smoke, forcing me to jettison the canopy and crash-land on the battlefield between the lines. I then ran away to hide in a nearby wood until our ground troops came and picked me up. So I learned my first lesson: "Think before you start an attack and use your head, not your muscles." MH: When did you score your first victory? Hrabak: It was on May 12, 1940, in the French campaign, the third day after the invasion began. I was again flying in a four-ship formation over the Sedan region, where our mission was to protect the bridges spanning the Maas River. Here we encountered a Potez 63, a twin-engine, light reconnaissance plane. I was first to attack, then the other three joined in. Well, the Potez belly-landed and the crew got out, but we wanted to see the aircraft burn, so we strafed the plane, setting it afire. We shot all our ammunition into this cripple. It seems that at that time I had forgotten my own advice of "use your head," because we were suddenly jumped by nine Curtiss [H-75A] fighters of the French air service. All we could do was open the throttles and run like hell for our home base. MH: Sounds like the folly of youth. Hrabak: You are correct, but it's not only age, it's also the growing experience; you learn from each flight. Well, the war went on in France until June, but it was over Dunkirk that we experienced British Supermarine Spitfires lot the first time. In the heavy air battle that followed, I lost two of my pilots--these were the first losses for our squadron without any compensating success. This was a learning experience, and it made me very cautious in future fights against Spitfires.
MH: What do you remember of the Battle of Britain? Hrabak: Before answering your question, let me tell you about my second engagement against Spitfires. It was in the area north of Rouen when I detected quite a large number of Spitfires in a formation that we called the "idiot snake," one plane flying behind the other at a slightly lower altitude, weaving back and forth. I went to attack what I thought was the last plane, but another shot out my cooling system, which was a very vulnerable part of the Me-109. I had to crash-land when my engine seized up. After the French campaign ended, I was stationed near Rotterdam for a month to protect the oil refineries. On August 8, 1940, just five days before Adler Tag [an all-out Luftwaffe effort to eliminate the Royal Air Force], I transferred to an emergency field just south of Calais. This was still 1(J)/ZG.76, and we flew missions against England until November 30, 1940. The fighting was very tough over the Channel, and we lost many pilots. MH: Weren't you serving with Johannes Trautloft at that time? Hrabak: Yes, that's right. It had been the middle of August during a rejuvenation of all command positions within fighter command proper, as ordered from Berlin. It was at this time that "Hannes" became Kommodore of JG.54 Grünherz ("Green Hearts") and I became commander of I/ZG.76, which was re-designated II/JG.54. By the way, Trautloft had been my squadron commander in 1937 at Bad Aibling, so I knew him very well and held him in high esteem. MH: What were the circumstances behind your receiving the Knight's Cross in October 19407 Hrabak: As a group commander I had to have at least 15 aerial victories to qualify for that high decoration. I had already received the Iron Cross in both first and second classes. I received the Knight's Cross after my 16th victory--six in the Battle of France and 10 in the Battle of Britain--and I was very proud to be the first pilot of JG.54 to receive the decoration. I had to drive all the way to Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring's command train, which was at that time stationed near Beauvais. With me at that time was a very good friend and excellent fighter pilot named Josef Priller, who we called "Fips" or "Pips." Priller ended the war with 101 victories, all flying against the Western Allies. At this time he was a squadron leader in JG.26 "Schlageter." MH: What did you think of Göring? Hrabak: In 1940 he was a large, very alert and interested person, wanting details of the fighting and what we thought about the enemy aircraft and our own new models. But this changed as the war went on, and he became lethargic, lazy and disinterested in everything except himself. He became a joke to the fighter pilots, and some even said so to his face. MH: What was your next combat arena? Hrabak: I left the Channel coast on November 30, 1940, when JG.54 moved back to northern Germany. We were in need of serious replenishment of pilots and serviceable aircraft, as our losses had been high. The pilots and ground crews went on leave, and this was when I got married, which I guess would qualify as my next combat area, don't you think? In the second half of January 1941 we were sent to Le Mans and Cherbourg in northwest France, but this was only until the war was carried into Yugoslavia in April. We did not encounter any enemy aircraft. We flew ground attack and strafing missions, as well as reconnaissance, none of which was interesting for us fighter pilots. I do, however, remember hearing about a couple of pilots who encountered enemy-flown Messerschmitts, which Germany had sold to them before the war, older [Me-109E-3] models. They did not have self-sealing tanks or protective armor plating for the pilot, so it was easy to kill them. After Yugoslavia was defeated, we handed over our aircraft to the fighter units continuing the war against Greece and Crete. II/JG.54 transferred by car and train to Stolp Reitz air base in northeast Germany, where we received our new Me-109Fs. MH: When did you assume command of JG.52? Hrabak: Well, before that, I had fought with JG.54 for over a year on the Leningrad front, after the invasion of Russia on June 22, 1941, until October 1, 1942, when I was promoted to major and took over command of JG.52 in the southern region. MH: Was there, in your opinion, a difference between the war in the north and in the south of the Soviet Union? Hrabak: Oh, yes, definitely! I would call the Leningrad front rather quiet, static, since we were not required to continuously move from one base to another in order to fly our missions. In the south, however, it was a fast war. We flew at first from Kharkov to the Stalingrad area in the north, then to the Caucasus Mountains and the Black Sea. We were sort of a fire brigade, as the front was always moving back and forth, and we were expected to be at every spot that was burning--to put out the fire, so to speak. During my two years as Kommodore of JG.52 I flew from 47 different airfields.
MH: What in your opinion was the most significant difference between war on the Channel coast and in the Soviet Union? Hrabak: I think that the first and foremost thing to consider was the psychological factor. The British were a fair people and acted according to the rules of war under the Geneva and Hague conventions, especially concerning the treatment of prisoners of war, the International Red Cross, et cetera. With the Soviets, however, we never knew if we would survive being downed behind their lines or not, and history has proved that there was no such adherence to those regulations, or even the simple humane treatment of another warrior. MH: How would you rate the British fighter pilots against the Russians? Hrabak: Well, I must say that the really experienced Russians thoroughly trained in peacetime were killed off in the first three months of the invasion. Those that remained flew obsolete aircraft such as the Tupolev SB, which we called the "Martin bomber," and Ilyushin DB-3 bombers, as well as old Polikarpov I-15 and I-16 "Rata" fighters, and used no tactics whatsoever. Furthermore, the Russians lacked the technical training and combat skill that the British had mastered, at least early in the war. The Russians had no stomach for prolonged dogfighting, unlike the British. Later in the war, however, a new breed of Russian pilots emerged, flying excellent native aircraft. The best Russia had was placed in elite Red Banner fleets, and they claimed many German pilots. I would have to say the British were the most aggressive I flew against. MH: What was your first meeting with Hitler in November 1943 like? Hrabak: I was ordered to Hitler's forward headquarters at Vinniza in the Ukraine for the award of the oak leaves to my Knight's Cross. When I landed my 109, I was informed that Hitler had already left and returned to the Wolfschanze [Wolfs Lair, his East Prussian headquarters]. Well, I left my fighter there and continued my journey in a courier plane, and of all people I met [Junkers Ju-87 Stuka pilot] Hans-Ulrich Rudel, who along with his gunner, [Staff Sgt. Erwin] Hentschel, had been ordered there for the same reason. He was the most highly decorated pilot Germany had during the war, winning the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, Diamonds and Golden Oak Leaves with Diamonds. Rudel was a true fanatic up to the last day. We used to fly missions for his dive bombers, and just watching him you could see it. He brought along his gunner to meet Hitler. Rudel had requested that Hentschel be awarded a Knight's Cross, but it had never arrived. Do you know if Hentschel survived the war? He was a likable boy. MH: No, he drowned when Rudel was forced down in the Dniepr River in 1944. They tried to swim across, along with the crew from another crashed Ju-87. Hrabak: After we all had received our decorations, including Hentschel [who was one of only three men to receive the Knight's Cross from Hitler, who normally would only hand out decorations of oak leaves and higher], we had lunch with Hitler and several of his staff. After this we had coffee with Hitler alone, and after some conversation we left to return to our units. MH: What was your impression of Hitler during that meeting? Hrabak: He was very serious, hardly laughing or showing any humor, but this was after we had lost Stalingrad and the Sixth Army, and the North African Front. He asked us about our units, families, where we came from and what our opinions were of the war at the front. I was very reserved, but Rudel discussed this issue as if it were a great crusade, amazing me. I was more amazed that Hitler seemed to enjoy the talk, as if defeat could be averted through this man. It was very interesting. I then took some weeks of leave, and when I returned to the front the Russians had already overrun Vinniza. My transport aircraft, a Ju-52, flew low to avoid Russian fighters, but we were already in danger of partisan groundfire. My destination was Taganrog, where my unit had been reassigned in the meantime. MH: Where did the war take you in 1944? Hrabak: From Taganrog we were forced to retreat by the Soviets, who were rolling over our ground troops by sheer weight of numbers. From the Crimean Peninsula, which we had abandoned in the spring of 1944, we went via Odessa to several bases in Romania, Hungary and Poland, where I had my base headquarters at Krakow, leaving a group in Hungary. Our wing had just celebrated its 10,000th victory--the only unit to do so in the Luftwaffe or the world, so far as I know. This was when I handed over the command to Lt. Col. Hermann Graf, and I transferred back to JG.54. This unit was at that time fighting in the Baltic region, and the military situation had changed completely. Three years before, we had reached Lake Ladoga at Leningrad, cutting the city and its 4 million inhabitants off from the rest of the Soviet Union. Now our troops of Army Group North had been driven back through Latvia and Estonia, cutting them off from the rest of the German Reich. Just at the time I arrived, the unit was being equipped with the Focke Wulf Fw-190D fighter, which flew against the Russians who had reached the Baltic Sea, driving through and separating East Prussia from Latvia. The Luftwaffe was very weak at this point--with two groups JG.54 could never hope to gain air superiority against the mounting number of Russian aircraft. The Russians never defeated Army Group North, which held out until the last day of the war, surrendering about 210,000 Germans and Latvian volunteers to the Soviets in the Kurland. MH: How did you get your men out of the Kurland pocket? Hrabak: Well, on May 8, 1945, I received a telephone call ordering me to take off with the group the next morning, weather permitting. We were to fly to Flensburg on the Danish border, and since I maintained good relations with the German navy, mostly because I still had friends from my early days, they agreed to take as many of the ground personnel as possible by ship. We pilots ripped out all unnecessary equipment from our fighters, allowing us to take two men, your best friend and the first mechanic, one man crouching behind the seat after the armor plate was removed and the other fitting into the fuselage. For us it became the last and longest flight of our lives, but at least 90 percent of my personnel escaped Russian capture. We did not know the war had ended, but learned this fact after we landed and were taken prisoner by the British.
MH: Didn't you undergo exceptional treatment? Hrabak: Yes, because I held the rank of colonel I was sent to Belgium and placed in a special reeducation camp until February 1946, when I was allowed to go home. MH: What postwar work did you perform for Chancellor Konrad Adenauer? Hrabak: In 1953 I was asked to join a group of former officers who were trying to make preparations for a new Federal German air force, or Bundesluftwaffe. The new forces were being built up, as you know, because of the Cold War. I joined this group, hoping to be able to fly again, and together with Steinhoff and Kurt Kuhlmey [a former Ju-87 pilot from the Polar Front in Finland], we went for refresher training in the United States. MH: What brought you there? Hrabak: It was at this time the U.S. Air Force formed the MDAP (Mutual Defense Assistance Program) in Germany. They built up several bases just like in the States in order to retrain former Luftwaffe personnel from various branches. Kuhlmey, Steinhoff and I started refresher training on a proficiency basis in Winterhaven, near St. Petersburg, Fla. Included was a language school, to improve our rather poor English, except for Steinhoff, who spoke several languages very well. After we finished the basic training on the North American T-6, we were posted for advanced training on the Lockheed T-33 at Williams Field Air Force Base near Phoenix, Ariz. From January 1956 onward, we received our weapons training at both Williams Field and Luke Air Force Base on the Republic F-84 and the North American F-86 Sabre. MH: How did you like the United States? Hrabak: We loved it, especially Arizona, where we had a fine time. It was very interesting as well as strenuous for us, as we were already rather old men compared to the other pilots, you know. MH: What postwar positions did you hold in the Bundeslufiwaffe? Hrabak: Upon returning in 1956 I became commander of the Advanced Pilot Training Center at Furstenfeldbrdck, which I took over from U.S. Air Force Europe with about 120 officers and airmen. Those missions ended in December 1959. In 1960 I became brigade commander of all flying training centers for our Luftwaffe, and two years later I was appointed commander of Air Defense Sector Number One, covering north Germany and the Netherlands. After two years passed I was posted to the Air Center at Fontainbleau, near Paris, as chief of Air Defense Central Europe, a North Atlantic Treaty Organization assignment. My next position brought me back to our defense ministry, when I became special manager for the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, to handle the problems we were experiencing with this wonderful aircraft, which had caused us many pilot losses in the mid-1960s. From 1967 onward I held the position of general of the air force fighting units, the predecessor of the Luftwaffenkommando of today. All of the flying units as well as the anti-aircraft units using Hawk, Nike, Pershing, Roland and other air defense systems were under that command, which compares to today's Tactical Air Command. I finally retired in 1970. MH: How was life after retirement? Hrabak: After I retired I stayed in contact with old comrades still on active duty, and I remained in the shadows as an adviser to an aircraft engine manufacturer until about 1973. I became president of a sport flying club until I had to stop due to a serious illness in 1984. I still have many friends in America, and I enjoy the times when I can come. If you ask if I am happy to be retired, I must say yes! I spent more than 30 years in uniform, although I still watch with interest all of the political and military developments going on all over the world. MH: Do you think another world war like the past two is possible in the future? Hrabak: I am of the opinion that there will never be another world war, but warlike situations exist in many places around the world today. Religion and economics are probably the greatest motivations for war. The United States has many worldwide obligations where peace is concerned and needs powerful forces, yet they should learn from Vietnam, Korea, Somalia and now Yugoslavia. I hope that large wars will never happen again, where young men must give their lives for a useless cause.
